British Invasion: The F-22 fighter will be appearing in the skies over Britain for the first time later this month, demonstrating its prowess at two air international shows. Tomorrow, three Raptors from the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley AFB, Va., along with members of the F-22 demonstration team will make the trek across the Atlantic Ocean for a week-long stint. On July 12 and July 13, Maj. Paul Moga, USAF's first F-22 demonstration pilot, will treat visitors to a single-ship performance at the Royal International Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford in Gloucestershire, wing spokeswoman 2nd Lt. Georganne Schultz, told the Daily Report. On the following day, Moga will perform at the Farnborough International Air Show outside of London, Schultz said. The F-22s will head back to Langley on July 15, she said. The F-22 Demonstration Team is in its first full season. Last year was its debut year, but not a full season. Normally two aircraft would be sent for such a demonstration, with one serving as a backup. Schultz said, in this case, the decision was made to send three.
And what will our Brit friends see?Well, since you asked, Gentle Reader, here’s Major Moga explaining the elements of the single-ship demonstration as he puts the F-22 through (some of) its paces…
Cool, eh? The photo (taken last month) shows an F-22 out of Langley AFB, VA in formation with members of the RAF's aerial demonstration team, the Red Arrows. The Arrows were in the US last month on a goodwill tour; you can see a two-minute video of them flying over NYC here.
Wow, an F-22 Flight Demonstration team!!! That's really something given what amazing things the F-22 can do. Since we won't be selling this fine aircraft to NO ONE I wonder what could come from having a Flight Demonstration team? Does the AF have an A-10 Flight Demonstration Team? I would love to see the B-52 Flight Demonstration Team, or better yet the B-1, nothing like seeing the prettiest jet in the sky do its thing in a controlled scenario.
I jest a wee bit here, but find it hard to swallow the cost/price of any aircraft that hurts the federal treasury when it is lost. And the loss is bittersweet when its for something dumb like bird strike, or CFIT or a pilot mistake. Worse yet if that is at an air show, a purley refined way to waste airframe time. Not to speak of the time it takes to get there from Langly (how many in-air refueling will that take I wonder)? Oh, given their track record on long flights (re. flight accross the pacific, crossing the date line and all that) I really hope there is a lot of bang to be had over there in merry ole England.
Cool video. I was going to say that I'd seen one of those at an air show, but after checking my photos, it wasn't an F-22 that I saw. It was an F-18E Super Hornet. It was still cool.
Ah, it's all PR now, innit, Jimmy? Your points are well-taken and are very logical. But the world ain't logical, especially the USAF (these days). I suppose there's some sort of position paper languishing somewhere in the Penta-Palace that details the why's and wherefore's of an F-22 demo team. The military doesn't do a danged thing these days without justifying it six ways from Sunday.
Still... I like your B-1 demo team idea! I can just imagine five B-1s doing a bomb-burst maneuver... and THAT would be awesome, indeed!
And...unless things have changed radically... I can vouch for the fact there certainly IS "a lot of bang to be had over there in merry ole England." There sure was back in MY day! ;-)
Becky: Air shows, regardless of the types of planes performing, are just Great Good Things!
I'm sorry Buck for picken' on the Air Force once again, and you are correct I am sure there is a large point paper on the benefits of having an F-22 Flight Demonstration team. I just find it hard to reconcile with the bottom line. At $345 million a copy for something that is supposed to be a 'consumable' (why else do we put an escape system on them???) just burns me.
We have this one service throwing away their support to the current war we are fighting to get their hands on wiz-bang toys for some future war against some future unknown enemy that has a 5th gen fighter to go head to head with. I am with Secretary Gates here, get with the current program and then go after more toys. They are even funding the development of the next generation bomber aircraft - Give me a break!!!! Use the three we have on hand right now, just base them were they won't get rained on.
Now on a more pleasant and less critical note, and keeping with the Bomber idea - I dearly love the B-1. What a hot, sexy and deadly looking aircraft. That is to me the hottest aircraft in the sky. Even over the Jet I worked and loved for almost 30 years (the S-3 War Hoover - Ok Viking). A B-1 Lancer Flight Demonstration team would get me on the road to anywhere they were flying!!! Just wish there was a squadron of them at the Willow Grove JRS, I'd go drool on them every day.
An interesting story about the B1. A few years ago my wife and were camping in state park nearby. We were floating around in the bay, cooling off. I had read in the paper that a guy in the area had built a full size reproduction Stearman from a kit. As luck would have it the Stearman flew over from west to east, beautiful plane, as he went over the tree line a B1 appeared over the top of the Stearman heading west towards Eglin AFB. Neatest thing, of course I didn't have a camera. What a shot it would have been. I've seen the Stearman at the Destin Airport but not up close. Maybe some dat at the Eglin Air show. The B1 had just finished testing at the Climatic Lab and was undergoing flight tests. Climatic testing is hard on a plane and they are carefully inspected before they leave.
Jimmy: Once again, you make some valid points, but you're a lil bit high on the F-22's cost, according to RAND:
In a report presented to USAF last week, RAND found that continuing F-22 production uninterrupted at rates of 20 aircraft per year in Fiscal 2010, 2011, and 2012, and then 15 in 2013, would be the most affordable scenario for acquiring the 75 airplanes, costing $13.7 billion, with an average unit flyaway cost of $145 million. The next option, warm production (i.e., continuing production but at a reduced rate), would cost $17.7 billion, with a flyaway cost of $170 million, RAND states. The third option is the most expensive at $19 billion, with a unit flyaway cost of $200 million, because it entails shutting down Raptor production for two years and then restarting the line.
More here... the lead item on the July 1st edition.
I'm about half-way between what Gates is saying and what the USAF "fighter mafia" says on this subject. I believe we need more than the 183 Raptors currently authorized, but I'm not sure we need the 300+ USAF originally envisioned and requested.
I also believe the "fifth generation" fighter opposition will be real, in time. Just yesterday the Russians announced they'll have a fifth-generation equivalent to the F-22 operational by 2013. Foreign military sales wouldn't be far behind... coz that's what the Russians DO.
I agree with ya on the BONE... it's arguably the prettiest jet in the inventory (at the moment)!
Thanks, Dawn and Lou! Dunno about the pilot though, Lou. I'll defer to your judgment in that space!
http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/80d274c455f44e41bc1f84e994391a14?s=80&r=any Buck, Yeah but every report on the Cost of the F-22 is clouded in all the various Lot buy's and configurations and disparities between Pre-Prod and in Prod, NRE costs added or not, Fly-away Unit cost versus Total Weapons Systems Costs. It's all so jumbled up that I don't think anyone really knows. I have seen them down as low as $108 Million each (a steal at that price). Here is Global Security's take, and it is no prettier than the Rand Corp. report. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-cost.htm
My beef is that these are 'consumables' and should not cost even half as much as they do for the threat we are facing.
Speaking of that, and you did bring it up (and I believe you mentioned this before to me) I do think that Russia will spring for their own 5th Generation fighter but I don't seen them exporting it out to another country. In the old days when they were a communist/socialist government they did not care what the cost was for any of its equipment and they gave that stuff away to pretty much anyone. That is not the case today. If they make something other than a spiffed up existing SU-35 or one of those lovely MIG-31's than I don't think they will be giving it away. Not that they suspect having it used against them just that they are going to want some hard currency in exchange. And I think we are the only ones dumb enough to pay more than say $60million for a fighter jet.
The only other "real" threat out there would be China and I think they are well off the development pace. Plus I think if we simply pulled Walmart out we could collapse their economy and keep them in check. Course, they could use the same trick on us too!!!
Once again, all valid points, Jimmy. About Russian FMS, though... The Indians have a long relationship with Russia and the former USSR, and I'd see them as potential clients for a 5th-gen fighter. You mentioned the Chinese in light of their own development, but they might be tempted to buy a Russian fighter, too, just to get a leg-up on the development process. Would the Rooshians sell that sort of technology to the Chinese? That's an interesting question! (The Japanese and Australians have both expressed interest in the F-22, for that that's worth, btw. They've both been rebuffed. So far.)
China is one if the most interesting parts of our international equation at the moment. We DO seem to be locked in a mutual embrace that would have fatal consequences if either party tried to disengage. They hold nearly a trillion dollars of our debt, and we stock Wal-Mart's shelves in return. Breaking either covenant would be pretty danged damaging, if not fatal (I'll admit to a lil bit of hyperbole, here). And just WHAT are they planning to DO with that massive military build-up of theirs, anyway? Taiwan?
U.S. Air Force photo/Master Sgt. Bill Wiseman
Wow, an F-22 Flight Demonstration team!!! That's really something given what amazing things the F-22 can do. Since we won't be selling this fine aircraft to NO ONE I wonder what could come from having a Flight Demonstration team? Does the AF have an A-10 Flight Demonstration Team? I would love to see the B-52 Flight Demonstration Team, or better yet the B-1, nothing like seeing the prettiest jet in the sky do its thing in a controlled scenario.
ReplyDeleteI jest a wee bit here, but find it hard to swallow the cost/price of any aircraft that hurts the federal treasury when it is lost. And the loss is bittersweet when its for something dumb like bird strike, or CFIT or a pilot mistake. Worse yet if that is at an air show, a purley refined way to waste airframe time. Not to speak of the time it takes to get there from Langly (how many in-air refueling will that take I wonder)? Oh, given their track record on long flights (re. flight accross the pacific, crossing the date line and all that) I really hope there is a lot of bang to be had over there in merry ole England.
Cool video. I was going to say that I'd seen one of those at an air show, but after checking my photos, it wasn't an F-22 that I saw. It was an F-18E Super Hornet. It was still cool.
ReplyDeleteOh, and the B-1 was cool, too.
Ah, it's all PR now, innit, Jimmy? Your points are well-taken and are very logical. But the world ain't logical, especially the USAF (these days). I suppose there's some sort of position paper languishing somewhere in the Penta-Palace that details the why's and wherefore's of an F-22 demo team. The military doesn't do a danged thing these days without justifying it six ways from Sunday.
ReplyDeleteStill... I like your B-1 demo team idea! I can just imagine five B-1s doing a bomb-burst maneuver... and THAT would be awesome, indeed!
And...unless things have changed radically... I can vouch for the fact there certainly IS "a lot of bang to be had over there in merry ole England." There sure was back in MY day! ;-)
Becky: Air shows, regardless of the types of planes performing, are just Great Good Things!
I'm sorry Buck for picken' on the Air Force once again, and you are correct I am sure there is a large point paper on the benefits of having an F-22 Flight Demonstration team. I just find it hard to reconcile with the bottom line. At $345 million a copy for something that is supposed to be a 'consumable' (why else do we put an escape system on them???) just burns me.
ReplyDeleteWe have this one service throwing away their support to the current war we are fighting to get their hands on wiz-bang toys for some future war against some future unknown enemy that has a 5th gen fighter to go head to head with. I am with Secretary Gates here, get with the current program and then go after more toys. They are even funding the development of the next generation bomber aircraft - Give me a break!!!! Use the three we have on hand right now, just base them were they won't get rained on.
Now on a more pleasant and less critical note, and keeping with the Bomber idea - I dearly love the B-1. What a hot, sexy and deadly looking aircraft. That is to me the hottest aircraft in the sky. Even over the Jet I worked and loved for almost 30 years (the S-3 War Hoover - Ok Viking). A B-1 Lancer Flight Demonstration team would get me on the road to anywhere they were flying!!! Just wish there was a squadron of them at the Willow Grove JRS, I'd go drool on them every day.
mmmm... that photo's just pretty.
ReplyDeleteinteresting post and comments tonight
mmmm... that photo's just pretty.
ReplyDeleteinteresting post and comments tonight
An interesting story about the B1. A few years ago my wife and were camping in state park nearby. We were floating around in the bay, cooling off. I had read in the paper that a guy in the area had built a full size reproduction Stearman from a kit. As luck would have it the Stearman flew over from west to east, beautiful plane, as he went over the tree line a B1 appeared over the top of the Stearman heading west towards Eglin AFB. Neatest thing, of course I didn't have a camera. What a shot it would have been. I've seen the Stearman at the Destin Airport but not up close. Maybe some dat at the Eglin Air show. The B1 had just finished testing at the Climatic Lab and was undergoing flight tests. Climatic testing is hard on a plane and they are carefully inspected before they leave.
ReplyDeleteI love the plane pron and the pilot is not bad either.
ReplyDeleteJimmy: Once again, you make some valid points, but you're a lil bit high on the F-22's cost, according to RAND:
ReplyDeleteIn a report presented to USAF last week, RAND found that continuing F-22 production uninterrupted at rates of 20 aircraft per year in Fiscal 2010, 2011, and 2012, and then 15 in 2013, would be the most affordable scenario for acquiring the 75 airplanes, costing $13.7 billion, with an average unit flyaway cost of $145 million. The next option, warm production (i.e., continuing production but at a reduced rate), would cost $17.7 billion, with a flyaway cost of $170 million, RAND states. The third option is the most expensive at $19 billion, with a unit flyaway cost of $200 million, because it entails shutting down Raptor production for two years and then restarting the line.
More here... the lead item on the July 1st edition.
I'm about half-way between what Gates is saying and what the USAF "fighter mafia" says on this subject. I believe we need more than the 183 Raptors currently authorized, but I'm not sure we need the 300+ USAF originally envisioned and requested.
I also believe the "fifth generation" fighter opposition will be real, in time. Just yesterday the Russians announced they'll have a fifth-generation equivalent to the F-22 operational by 2013. Foreign military sales wouldn't be far behind... coz that's what the Russians DO.
I agree with ya on the BONE... it's arguably the prettiest jet in the inventory (at the moment)!
Thanks, Dawn and Lou! Dunno about the pilot though, Lou. I'll defer to your judgment in that space!
Dan: That WOULD have made one helluva photo!
http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/80d274c455f44e41bc1f84e994391a14?s=80&r=any
ReplyDeleteBuck,
Yeah but every report on the Cost of the F-22 is clouded in all the various Lot buy's and configurations and disparities between Pre-Prod and in Prod, NRE costs added or not, Fly-away Unit cost versus Total Weapons Systems Costs. It's all so jumbled up that I don't think anyone really knows. I have seen them down as low as $108 Million each (a steal at that price). Here is Global Security's take, and it is no prettier than the Rand Corp. report. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-cost.htm
My beef is that these are 'consumables' and should not cost even half as much as they do for the threat we are facing.
Speaking of that, and you did bring it up (and I believe you mentioned this before to me) I do think that Russia will spring for their own 5th Generation fighter but I don't seen them exporting it out to another country. In the old days when they were a communist/socialist government they did not care what the cost was for any of its equipment and they gave that stuff away to pretty much anyone. That is not the case today. If they make something other than a spiffed up existing SU-35 or one of those lovely MIG-31's than I don't think they will be giving it away. Not that they suspect having it used against them just that they are going to want some hard currency in exchange. And I think we are the only ones dumb enough to pay more than say $60million for a fighter jet.
The only other "real" threat out there would be China and I think they are well off the development pace. Plus I think if we simply pulled Walmart out we could collapse their economy and keep them in check. Course, they could use the same trick on us too!!!
Once again, all valid points, Jimmy. About Russian FMS, though... The Indians have a long relationship with Russia and the former USSR, and I'd see them as potential clients for a 5th-gen fighter. You mentioned the Chinese in light of their own development, but they might be tempted to buy a Russian fighter, too, just to get a leg-up on the development process. Would the Rooshians sell that sort of technology to the Chinese? That's an interesting question! (The Japanese and Australians have both expressed interest in the F-22, for that that's worth, btw. They've both been rebuffed. So far.)
ReplyDeleteChina is one if the most interesting parts of our international equation at the moment. We DO seem to be locked in a mutual embrace that would have fatal consequences if either party tried to disengage. They hold nearly a trillion dollars of our debt, and we stock Wal-Mart's shelves in return. Breaking either covenant would be pretty danged damaging, if not fatal (I'll admit to a lil bit of hyperbole, here). And just WHAT are they planning to DO with that massive military build-up of theirs, anyway? Taiwan?